Everybody talks about Competitve TF2

Thursday 10 September 2009 , by Teatime

Okay, competitive gameplay in TF2 ...
Not really my world. As much as I love TF I never felt the urge to play the game competitively. For one I think I would have neither the ambition nor the discipline to practice and train for the game as it would be necessary to become good enough. Also I’m quite sure that as a competitive player one has to deal with a lot of assholes, ranging from arrogant to ignorant, and I can really do without.

So my familiarity with competitive gameplay is slim at best. And since I’m not in a clan I don’t even have much experience with friendly scrims. Consequently I’ve encountered a lot of comments and remarks of players in regard of competitive games with puzzlement and irritation.

Back in TFC I was under the impression that the basics of competitive gameplay was similar to what happened on pub games, though – of course - on a much higher skill level and with much more organization and coordination. Pretty much like a saturday afternoon soocer game between friends would at least resemble a championship match.

So I was very much surprised to learn that competitive games and pub games in TF2 are at best cousins (twice removed) of each other in regard of their relation to basic gameplay.

I heard a bit about competitive gameplay in TF2 before, but really just got more insight when the TF2 blog pointed out the post of Waar on the Steam Forums. Following up on that I asked my mates from (and around) clan WDG a few (potentially stupid) questions [1] and was offered some excellent answers (especially some very clear and comprehensive explanations from Beau (posted under the alias Basingstoked) deserve to be singled out here ... thx again), which really helped me to understand that “regular TF2” and “competitive TF2” are two very different beasts.

Of course it all makes sense. Competitive TF2 is a format which puts a very strong emphasis on the individual skill of the players, and team sizes – usually 6vs6 – are chosen to maximize that effect. Fewer player would probably no longer be playable, more would make the single player less relevant. [2] Under these presumptions and the self-imposed restrictions, the favoring of certain maps and the concentration on certain classes are not only logical, but almost inevitable.

And still I can’t help but find the premises on which all of this is based rather arbitrary.

With the goal to play a highly skilled and fast paced game the competitive scene picked a number of features and aspects of TF2, pretty much dropped the rest in the dumpster and created a trimmed variation of TF2. They traded the complexity and richness of the game for speed and dynamic combined with a certain simplicity, all that to realize what Beau has called a “high skill ceiling”.

Personally I find that approach a bit sad and – flame bait – pathetic. But for one I am the first to admit that this is none of my business, and second I will have to agree that it is most likely a working system.

However, I can’t help but remember that back in TFC the competitive scene was playing primarily CTF-maps [3]. By nature CTF requires a completely different approach by usually splitting up the team into Offense and Defense, and especially the latter is more static than dynamic and therefore supports classes which would be useless in the highly dynamic gameplay of 5-CP-maps. Engineer and Heavy certainly are valid classes for D, and under circumstances a Pyro or a Sniper could be useful [4]. Engineers would suggest Spies as counterpart, and though I guess it would be difficult to use him effectively [5] a good Spy could still be a valuabe part of Offense.
I don’t think good CTF would work with with 6-player-teams, though. IIRC many leagues in TFC featured 8-player-team, which appears to be more reasonable.

Of course CTF will never be as popular again as it was in TFC [6]. Also there are chances the changed game mechanics from TF(C) to TF2 may have damaged the mode more than I initially imagined. I’m still not entirely convinced, but I will probably have to accept that CTF is a lost cause for TF2, and the way to play it is certainly a lost art.

Still I’d like to believe there are different formats which would be able to make better use of all the classes and the richness and complexity of the game.

But let’s face it: Why should the competitive scene care? Most of them want to be successful and fill that “skill ceiling” which gives them reputation and feeds their egos. I don’t think they are interested in a more rich and complex game. KISS, I guess.

Based on that I assume that competitive players are always suspicious about every change and class update Valve throws at the game. And if changes disturbs the status quo too much it simply gets banned by leagues (as I was told happened to the sandman after the scout update), which – while understandable – once more stresses the tendencies to simplify the game to the least common denominator.

I can’t help but wonder if clans and players organizing leagues even question their arbitrary choices and self-imposed restrictions any more. Or do most players accept it as an “It has always been that way”? Do they – at least on occasion – try to think outside the box, try to envision different ways of competitive gameplay?
I don’t think so. Quite contrary I’m under the impression the competitive scene thinks they have created the perfect match format. To them the basics of TF2 is the coal which they have refined into a diamond, which is - in their opinion - the 6vs6 format.

I’m not in a good position to judge, but to me it looks more like they took a car,
grabbed two wheels, parts of the frame, rebuilt the engine and created a good motorcycle which they now use to perform motorcycle-races.
And to stick to the racing analogy for a moment: It might be that Formula 1 is the most popular racing format, but to my knowledge [7] it’s not the only competitive format, and I’m sure each format has its own challenges and requires just as much skill.

As I said in the beginning: I’m not a competitive player. I was never particularly interested in becoming one before, but the way clans and leagues have been adapting TF2 to their goals is just further turning me off.

However, it is of interest that Valve has as well noticed the discrepancy between the TF2 of pub games and competitive game (in terms of game elements) and is obviously looking for ways to bridge this gap. The recent update already introduced some tweaks and adjustments which IMO were geared towards the competitive scene, and I expect more of those tweaks to follow. It will be interesting to see what Valve comes up with, but hopefully the competitive scene will be open for what Valve might offer them and don’t meet it with a “Never change a running system” attitude.

Footnotes

[1] Mainly concerning the small standard team sizes of six players and the restrictions to certain maps, predominantly 5-point CP-maps!

[2] There are different formats which feature teamsizes of 7, 8 or even 9 players (Highlander), but those are far less common.

[3] Sorry for bringing this up again. One last time and then I’ll shut up ;-)

[4] I think the Pyro would basically be of great use as forward defense, to soften up incoming attackers, but his effectivenss is severely compromised by enemy Medics on O, so it would be highly situational.

[5] Disguises will be useless for the most part, so the spy would have to rely on cloaked attacks.

[6] The fact that TF2’s now four official CTF maps are not particularly good isn’t really helping here.

[7] Not a sports fan, so I can’t offer more precise examples.

Discussion

  • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 10 September 2009 19:51

    This article struck a nerve on this side of the screen Tea, I usually agree with you but this particular article I cannot even slightly correlate my view with yours.

    What you are suggesting, as far as I can see, is for the best players in the world to impede themselves and their teams because some things which you love about the game aren’t effective and therefore aren’t used. Firstly before I go onto my main point, do you understand how boring and frustrating that would be? Tea, I dislike the fact that demomen don’t use their bottle enough, now you can only use your pipes and stickies after you’ve killed someone with the bottle. You complain about comp. players being douche’s, which is true, but you come across just as pompous as what seems to be a personal enemy of yours. Secondly, do you realise how hypocritical that sounds? YOUR notion of the game, a pub player with no comp. experience, conflicts with the best players in the world. Ask yourself, is that surprising? I’m not discounting pub play, I’m really not, I’m saying that 6v6 is how the best players in the world play it and unless you can compete with them and stand up to them with your format and your rules which you’ve spent time developing then I really think you should reconsider what seems like an equally as arrogant and ignorant view of the comp. side of TF2.

    Also, why do you think these players aren’t creative or smart enough to actually have created the best gameplay type? I think you forget that everyone played the same TF2 when it was first introduced, then some got really good and also really bored. They started a league, they tried 9v9, 7v7, 6v6 = they experimented. I don’t mean to be rude Tea, but can you say you’ve even attempted to think or implement a better format? If your answer is yes, then it’s either (a) a bad idea or (b) not popular (not fit for purpose). I’m assuming it’s no and therefore, in all honesty, what right do you have to challenge a tried and tested method, developed by the best players in the world, which has been in place for years and has attracted something pub play never will: sponsors and LAN.

    Lastly, I guess we just disagree Tea, but what I’m trying to communicate to you is that the best players in the world aren’t just the ones who hit every airshot, or never miss a headshot, they are also the best thinkers in the world (concerning the game). They have thought about the game, how it can be played, how it can be improved and they have acted upon it. What’s more is that they were the catalysts for LANs and Leagues, all which help promote the game and keep it alive. You might not respect them, but in my opinion, you have no right, and no evidence, to challenge them.

    PS. Apologies if I come across as a ’fanboy’ or such, or if you felt personally attacked or insulted, I truly didn’t mean to. It’s a subject I’m passionate about and perhaps I came out too hot. However, I stand by what I said and although usually I can respect your opinion on the game of TF2, I find that there is no information with which can aid your argument, whilst 6 Seasons of etf2l are a definite symbol of comp’s popularity (and efficiency).

    Again, apologies if I seem at all unfriendly.
    • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 12 September 2009 19:26, by Junta

      Would be interested to see who posted that - just for reference of course ;)

      I think that a certain amount of "devils advocate" needs to be played on the Fort 2 site. Its how you get the debate and discussion.
    • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 01:57, by Teatime

      Well, we have already talked a bit "behind the scenes".

      I’m sure there are very talented and intelligent people involved in the competitive scene, and I’m sure the format has not been chosen by somebody throwing a dice.
      But for one I suspect that other factors influenced the establishment of the 6vs6 format as predominantly format (at least to some degree), but I also suspect that many players no longer question it.
      In German there’s the word "Betriebsblindheit", meaning that established procedures and conditions after a while are taken for granted and unchangeable, simply by routine. It is a common phenomenon in many areas, and has nothing to do with people being dumb.
      So questioning the format is not supposed to call the competitive scene stupid, but to confront them with the question if they have lost sight of the possibility that there might be other interesting and challenging formats.
      • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 03:12, by Scroggage

        Referring to this "Betriebsblindheit" idea... have you never considered that your view of public play might be questionable in this way?
        In my opinion, the competitive side was invented largely because people saw that the previous "established" way of playing, i.e. Valve’s default server settings for 12v12 pub play had really big flaws and could lead to situations that just aren’t fun.

        For example, can you say that that last corner on Dustbowl when you CAN’T break through on attack due to 3 enemy demomen, 3 well-placed enemy sentries and a good medic, has ever been fun? Public play on this sort of map often results in a stalemate like this where BLU team is accomplishing nothing, often for 10 minutes at a time. Rules of engagement that result in lengths of time where you aren’t having any fun (for the same reasons time and time again) shows that there’s something wrong with the rules. Competitive play, as the Beau said, exists because the really good players wanted to experiment with these rules until they found a formula that suited them.

        That’s the reason why 6v6 exists, and you’re simply saying that other people’s personal preference is somehow doing them out of the "rich and challenging" play that they so badly need. But the point is they decided they don’t want that kind of play in their TF2! ("Waiter, there appears to be a man with an automatically firing and aiming weapon in my TF2, remove it please").

        I’m not getting at you particularly, just trying to get you to see that while you like the public way of doing things, perhaps it’s something you like due to it being the standard and accepted ruleset. And competitive play is just for those people who don’t like TF2 as standard quite as much as they enjoy the 6v6 rules they’ve developed.

        Think about it... even on WDG servers there are class limits, custom map rotation things that change the map if it goes past a certain stage etc... they’re all designed to make the game more suited to how we want to play! Think of 6v6 play as like that, but for a different audience.
      • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 10:50, by Junta

        Betriebsblindheit - indeed! :)

        This happens allot in other real world sports. Remember the controversial changes to football (i.e. the pass back rule) - its established now but there was massive debate when it was first introduced.
  • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 11 September 2009 14:56, by Lazzars

    leave the compy players to their sport and i’ll stick to my game

    if valve had a compy game they would have made one first and foremost so i wish they would just drop the idea of making the game more friendly to them and potentially messing things up for the 99% of people who couldn’t care less about turning it into a competition.

    i don’t care how much faster or smarter they may be at the game the case still remains that if its taken too seriously i cannot get on-board with it. also i may be tarring all compy players with the same brush with this but it breeds a certain sense of arrogance that is distinctly unappealing.

    i can’t deny that their skill is impressive but the way they want to play differs very fundamentally to me. they have a team that they train with and play for and i just join up a server and either play with guys i know or against they, community play is a very 2 sided affair whereas comp players seem to me to expect a one sided look at the game.

    feel free to tell me exactly how wrong i am seeing as really all i have to go with is personal opinion and conjecture.
    • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 13 September 2009 20:59, by TheBeau

      GRRRRRRRRRRR.

      So inviting the top comp teams in the game to a STANDALONE BETA VERSION OF THE GAME is ruining it for you? I don’t mean to be rude but that is the exact kind of attitude that’s the problem, you have admitted it’s your personal opinion but to voice it with no evidence or ideas (or even knowledge), is not excusable.

      Have you noticed the new changes in TF2 which have supposedly made it more comp friendly? Me neither, so relax and only whine when/if VALVe make a mistake in trying to IMPROVE the game rather than just forget about it to avoid players throwing their toys out the pram when something has changed.

      Sorry Lazzars, but it seems you’ve already got an anti-comp play attitude from actually never playing comp and being scared of change, even though nothing significant has actually happened to the game. Not meaning to be rude, but that really isn’t good enough.
      • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 01:45, by Teatime

        I’m perfectly fine with discussing the subject passionately and not mincing words, however I’d prefer if we could do so without getting personal!

        As for changes: There were a few, but so far only minor ones. That doesn’t mean there might be more significant changes in the future.
        The question, of course, remains how open the comp-scene is to changes which would have more impact on the established format. In that regard I think we are all living in anticipation towards the demo and soldier update which most likely will challenge the scene.
        • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 03:17, by Scroggage

          I’d be interested to know which changes so far you think have been made that make the game more competitive oriented, which aren’t just server variables that can be changed back, cos off the top of my head I can’t think of any. You’re probably right that there have been some of these changes... but I can’t recall them.
          • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 19:58, by Brahms

            The main one I can think of is stopping The Sandman from stunning ubers.
            • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 15 September 2009 16:14, by Scroggage

              Ah, yes, quite right.

              Yeah, I guess this change is geared towards comp play, but also to tip the game’s balance back towards the favour of the Uber. There are loads of things that can stop and uber based on precision (demos launching them for miles, solly juggling) but things like the pyro’s blowback and the sandman were making ubers (pretty much the core game mechanic) pretty unreliable. So I think it’s partly a balance thing rather than a comp thing.
      • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 10:56, by Lazzars

        its not the fact it has changed but that it will change. almost inevitably. the last update was geared totally towards it and the next one will be too by the looks of it.

        no i don’t play comp on TF2 and i don’t think i ever will BUT i have on other games and frankly i don’t like the spirit of those sorts of games more than any specific change in game play. i totally get that they work as a team better than any casual gamer does but playing from that casual perspective i don’t really enjoy steamrolling or being steamrolled (the result of skill stacked teams) so when a bunch of comp guys join up on a pub server and wipe the floor after team stacking i tend to get a dim view of them. but i digress.

        i don’t think the BETA is ruining it for me, what i don’t like is a previously casual game being re-geared towards a niche demographic of comp play. so what if the sandman broke an uber rush? that’s the point. if that breaks 6V6 but helps 12V12 then i don’t see the problem with it at all.

        how can changing the game to suit the few possibly be IMPROVING the game? in my opinion thats just streamlining the game in preference of speed and a heavy emphasis on pre game tactics over a sense of overall fun.

        really i thought that as a competitive scene they would be confined to competitions, setting up their own rules and all abiding by them. when the changes start spilling over into the wider community it seems unnecessary to me in that those changes are not designed to be needed in the general pub game and may not necessarily be beneficial to that type of game anyway.

        the point i’m getting at is that IN MY OPINION!!!!!! comp play is different than the vanilla game in a way that i don’t really appreciate, obviously, and seeing as valve have embraced that side of things i’ll just have to live with it BUT i don’t think that re-engineering the game to work in a different way than i was originally designed will really benefit the community in the long run and might even server to hurt the aspects that make the game fun.

        and frankly i don’t feel that its needed to get personal here, just because my opinion contrasts with your own there is still no need to get so worked up about it. though my first post might not have been much more articulated that "OMG COMP SUX LOL" last time i checked comments still means comments, structured arguments or not.
        • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 21:00, by TheBeau

          Ok dude sorry, I didn’t meant to come out so hot, looking back it wasn’t a great way to address your comment. Primarily I was trying to show how frustrating it was to deal with this opinion again and again. I probably shouldn’t have singled you out and I didn’t mean to, but my point is still absolutely valid and your second comment doesn’t do much to ratify my earlier criticisms.

          What I’m trying to say, is that there is already a great pub game in TF2. We can all have fun on it. This is good. However those that want to play competitively are essentially being told: No. My game. You can’t touch my game because I like it the way it is. That’s selfish in it’s own right and to make matters worse? TF2 might not even change a bit.
  • Everybody talks about Competitve TF2 14 September 2009 11:00, by Junta

    TBH - I’m glad that Valve might introduce a possible "split" into TF2. The community players don’t often enjoy getting pwned by talented teams on servers and both sides need / want something different.

    Let the community players carry on as we do (i.e. play on WDG) and invite some changes to support the match players who need different conditions.

    The main point for me is that the beta option does NOT prevent a community player from trying the match / scrim route and any scrim player can drop into community play whenever they wish.

    It all boils down to different needs. The competitive people will want to try their talent against similar people with specific rules and styles of play. The community players need something different - often more balanced for the "fun" aspect of things.

    Core examples are maps that get played on community more than matches. I bet that PLR maps get more play on community than they do in matches (but its not impossible of course).

    Ultimately, the match players and community players will drive the product innovation from valve. TBH... the community has had far more say so far (look at the new weapons and play modes introduced by Valve). The match players deserve a chance to have their say on the product now too. For me, this is akin to the Formula 1 technology eventually being used for road cars. The revolutionary ideas are driven out in competition and hit the mainstream generally for the benefit of all. I hope that Valve can pick up some good ideas from competitive play as in my mind such ideas will be balanced by the very nature of the competitive scene.

    :)
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